Harry Turner 00:10
This guest that I have on she goes by the name of the shadow Queen. And yes, the nocturnal therapist and the Shadow Queen will be talking to you all today about shadows and hot stuff and whatever the hell we feel like talking about, but just know that it's going to be good. So you want to stay tuned? Yes, I have thee Shadow Queen on this [stage]. Welcome to the stage. Welcome to stage!
Danielle Massi 00:37
Thank you for having me. I feel like Mercury Retrograde is really just hitting us hard immediately. So the conversation is going to balance it out. And we'll we'll get there.
Harry Turner 00:46
Ms Massey is a Licensed Psychotherapist, she is the creator of the Shadow Seekers Movement. She is the number one best selling author, the CEO of the wellness collective. She is self ish. Philly conference founder. She is a she has a podcast, co host, she's a motivational speaker, and she is the leading expert on Shadow Work.
Harry Turner 01:12
Now I know I was will sell that before she jumped on here. I know you're thinking that already. But here's the thing. I was just excited. I wanted her to be on stage. So whatever it is gonna go to where I need to go. So welcome to the stage.
Harry Turner 01:22
And the book. The book is coming out. Let me just bring that out. We're gonna say it a few times. But she has a new book coming out a new book. Yeah, it's not our first rodeo. Okay, new book. All right. Her new book is coming out in September September 20th. This year, it's "Shadow Work: Face Hidden Fears, Heal trauma, Awaken Your Dream, Life." Awaken to your dream life.
Danielle Massi 01:43
This is it. Come on,
Harry Turner 01:44
come on. Oh, you already got it. I got a
Danielle Massi 01:48
copy. They give the authors with the publishing agents an advanced copy. So you could check out the book, make sure there's no errors and just kind of look at it and feel like I did that. Which feels good. Yeah. So I have a copy. And what Oh, I did a book. Yeah, I'm excited. This is my first full book. The one that I did before was the multi author book series, which I just wrote one chapter. And then I also have the shadow secrets journal, which is on Amazon. That's one that got me. Best Selling Author, which is fun.
Harry Turner 02:20
Cool. You can we the best selling author, one which wouldn't is that
Danielle Massi 02:25
galti author book, too. But that was for my shadow secrets journal, which is this little guy's internal Shadow Work prompts to help people who are just starting out on that shadow work journey. Get into it without feeling the pressure. Because I know that shadow work can feel heavy or overwhelming before you start before you even do anything, just the idea of it. So this is just like tiptoeing your way in,
Harry Turner 02:48
huh? It's putting your toe in the water putting into what you're doing, right? Yeah.
Danielle Massi 02:55
Like, do I really want to do this?
Harry Turner 03:01
I have so many questions for you. But let's begin. I'm a student, the teacher is always a student. But I'm definitely I want to sit back and be the student. Enjoy being a student today. So help my crowd for those who just tuned in, I help them understand what are shadows and why why why have you become the Shadow Queen? Like how did that journey happen?
Danielle Massi 03:23
Yeah, I feel like this is the question that I get asked the most like, What even is the shadow? So the way that I find that it's easiest to get into it is through our history. So in 1863 Carl Jung who is some renowned psychiatrists, and he was friends with Freud. Obviously, we need to take that with a grain of salt because the two of them had a lot of great ideas and a lot of awful ideas. But the one really good one from Carl Jung was the unconscious mind and the shadow which Freud also agreed with.
Danielle Massi 03:52
The unconscious mind is the level of our consciousness that is so far down, so buried and so repressed within our psyche, that it's very hard to access, which is where Shadow Work comes in.
Danielle Massi 04:04
The process of going in and excavating that shadow, in an attempt to heal it completely. So then as we bring these things up to the surface, they're no longer weighing us down energetically, emotionally, physically or mentally.
Danielle Massi 04:17
My journey to get to shadow work came after her cancer diagnosis back in 2018, was something that came out of nowhere, it was really befuddling to my doctors. Everyone was shocked. No signs, no symptoms, no warning leading up to that point. And after I went through my cancer journey, I fell into a really deep depression. And at the time, I was a Licensed Therapist. I'd been in Private Practice for over a decade. I had all the tools and all the resources to get myself out of it, and yet I couldn't. And that was when I started doing shadow work. I found a mentor in the UK, who was also a licensed psychotherapist, her name was Alison Kelsey, and she was just an angel on this earth. And she taught me everything about how to get through the darkest moments of my life, how to heal myself how to release all the stress that I've been holding in my body for so many years. And then eventually, she taught me how to do that work with other people. So I took everything she brought, I went back to my own psychology background and my neuroscience background because I studied neuroscience in school. And I just really wanted to focus on that merger between the science and the spirituality to attack the shadow from a really deep level. And that's how I got here. And I love that I ended that right as you went for a step. I'm so sorry.
Harry Turner 05:39
No, you're totally totally, totally cool. Totally cool. Yeah. Yeah. I calmed myself down almost. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, that's you're quite quite accomplished that and the journey is the journey is real. So you face your own shadow. So let's just flow. Let's just flow with it. You said Jung, the relationship between Jung and Freud. Take it with a grain of salt. Why you say that?
Unknown Speaker 05:59
So much of what happened back in the 1800s, in psychiatry was really just throwing pasta at a wall and seeing what would stick. So they would just come up with ideas. And if it had any merit, they're like, great, that one's actually working out. But so many of the ideas were really harmful, and across the board just kind of neglectful in the way that they approached the mind. But because at the time they were these big, powerful figures, people respected everything they did. They were allowed to do that they got away with it. So I think it's really important to make that distinction.
Danielle Massi 06:32
Because I think now especially in today's day and age, there's a lot of spiritual gurus out there, there's a lot of people . . . . different people who have these really big followings, but they don't necessarily understand what they're doing. And it's apparent that they don't really know what they're doing. But you can tell that it's not always coming from a really genuine place. So for instance, when we started this conversation, and you said, I'm the student, I feel like that's so important, because we're all students, right? I didn't give myself the name, Shadow Queen, someone else gave it to me, it still is one of those things that kind of makes me laugh to this day, but I rolled with it. I think all of us are students. We're all constantly learning. And every day, the things that we know are going to change, like the facts that we know, are not really facts, because we're always uncovering new information. And as we grow, and as we expand probably even just a few months from now, this conversation that we're having might be a little bit outdated, because New information has come to light scientists found new things, which is beautiful and amazing, right?
Harry Turner 07:38
And it is yes, yes. Yes. Look. Just pause for a second right. Now to take my glasses off and just let that saturate for a second. Yes, it can. There's a lot of and this is this is not meant to be a judgment, even though it most certainly is a judgment term. But I'm not landing it on any specific person. But I do believe that there's a lot of charlatans out there who are intentional this going towards whatever they think is popular, and trying to use that to make a quick dollar at the end of the day. That's what it is. At the end of the day. Why else would you do something that you don't really believe in unless money was involved? That's it.
Harry Turner 08:23
Cash rules everything around me. Y'all know what cream? Dolla dolla bill, y'all Y'all know what it is? You know, I'm saying, Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. So how do you for the for my listeners? How do you know, when you're plugging into someone who is actually on that frequency on that journey?
Unknown Speaker 08:38
I think it's a lot of it is the feeling like the energy is this person feel good to be around. But if you pay attention, I know you're a therapist as well as I am. We're trained to look for those little tills, those little changes in the way that someone's behavior shifts were the words that they say. So the people who say things like, I want everyone to listen to me, or I like you know what I'm talking about. Or even just, this is such a small thing. And hopefully people can see this too, and not just listening on the podcast.
Danielle Massi 09:11
But people who have narcissistic traits tend to make themselves really broad and wide and take up a lot of space. And you'll see that with the people who are kind of parading around a little bit of spiritual gurus where they'll say things and they puff up like a peacock. And that is actually a narcissistic trait. That's a tendency that people with narcissism have to just make themselves feel big, and then trick other people into thinking that they are big, that they have things to say that are important. Some of the people that I've worked with some of the ones who I just I'm so thankful that I crossed paths with them on my journey are the ones who are not doing it for the acclaim who don't really want spotlight. They just love what they do and they just are so happy to be able to do it every single day and they feel blessed to be able to walk that path And that's where I want to be. That's the energy that I want to sit in. And those are the people that I want to be around. Mm hmm.
Harry Turner 10:07
All right, so let it flow. Would you be in a therapist as well, a psychotherapist, would you say? Or do you believe that we all carry narcissistic traits? Oh, absolutely,
Danielle Massi 10:21
I think to be human is to have a certain level of narcissism, because we're thinking all the time, our own thoughts. And we're seeing the world in specific ways. And it really is just our point of view. I do think that certain places breed more narcissism than other months, like living in America, I think breeds a lot more narcissism than, say, living in really collectivistic cultures. So I think there's factors that play into it. But yeah, to some degree, we all have it. So it's just a matter of how do you feed it? Or not? How do you feed it or extinguish it?
Harry Turner 10:56
Ah, yes. And I'll just say, my take on this I am. So against labels. I can't stand labels. And for us, when you say narcissist, you know exactly what you're talking about. But when I say narcissist, I know exactly what I'm talking about. 98% of the people that's using the word right now don't know what they're talking about. And so when, when, as people are getting more informed about mental health and whatnot, these words get out there, and they get a little grasp of it, and assume that now they're an expert on it, and this causes a population that's already one of the least likely to ever go and get treatment to really never ever go get treatment. I mean, it's this aid this this ego that that ego is so frail, that's the reason why in the most sickest forms, they can they can call so much so much harm can be done in that space.
Harry Turner 11:44
Because the more lost we are essentially what I see, when I see someone who's lost in the world of narcissism is really a child swinging the sword. Yeah, it's gonna be a lot of damage. Yeah, but still, I see her child. And then when you look at the histories, you already know that the history is aligned with severe child abuse. So now you have someone who's locked in those earliest stages of development trying to defend themselves, but they're 40, 50, 60 years old, but everyone else is 40, 50, 60 years old. And you got to see the layers of individual. Yeah, that's, that's when that compassion comes in. When you begin to understand my
Harry Turner 12:19
I will say all that to say, My People, Y'all follow me, if you're gonna be out like not, if you're gonna be out, you decide what you want to do, you can be an outlier within being outlier tribe. But my stance on that is that understand that labels you're not a label, you're not an any label that we're talking about any word we use now. It's, it's all energy and energy, it exists on a spectrum. And no, none of us, all of us are made up of the same cosmic material. And so in that space, we have different variations of that same cosmic material. So we present different ways in this physical man, this physical reality, but at the same time, we are, we're still that same, we are all the same. And knowing that we are different levels of different things.
Harry Turner 13:00
And we know we come here tabula rasa, which means empty slate. And we've come here to discover a deeper truth about who we are. And that's really the journey. That's why we're seared with that one question, Who am I in the back of our minds, and so we just search for that. And it just wakes us up. It just bothers us so much, that we just can't get that one question out there. Because that's by default, that's by default, to make sure that we always remember why we're here. And that's to find out truth, and then live in that truth. And the more truth that you discover these are there, there's there's individual truths. And it's more truth was to discover we don't ever, we won't ever know all truth until we are no longer here. So the game is to continue to chase after your truth. So I say all that again, to say that while you're on your journey, know that your path, some people come here to do this, and some people come here to do that. But make sure that you just focus on whatever it is that you come here to do. You can't even judge the other person's journey. Because maybe they've come here to suffer, maybe that's part of their past suffering. And to show us thank you for your gratitude for your sacrifice. Because I don't have to go through that I see what you're going through. I see the suffering that you're going through, I see how you're alienated. I see what you do to try to puff yourself up. And, and thank you for that example, because I know I don't need to go down that route.
Danielle Massi 14:11
Thank you for that beautiful explanation. I can even find myself sometimes going right into those labels, because I think it's so much easier for people to conceptualize. But it is important for us to remember that even things that were considered abnormal 60 years ago, 100 years ago, they don't even exist in the DSM anymore. They're not in that Diagnostic Statistical Manual. So everything that we come through everything we experienced, that all shapes us differently and over time, things that we view as abnormal now won't be abnormal anymore. They'll be something new that we'll try to throw into a box and slap a label on and try and demonize people for acting certain ways.
Harry Turner 14:50
Yeah, I'm no psychic here look I'm we I'm not even looking at the time I don't even care about the time like this. This podcast got longer than all my other pockets. This will be I'm Go have a good time today. But I believe Milo nocturnal mind believes that the next one up after narcissism, is histrionic disorder. Hmm. Reason being is because while the wave the whole Salem witch trials against Narcissus is happening, histrionic, that's perfect, that is the perfect setting with someone who's histrionic to move on in, or some of the more harmful symptoms of also borderline personality disorder as well seeping on in. And so now this, this blows up and then eventually enough harm is done. We're not all of society's like, watch out for the histrionic watch out for it. And it's like, when will we stop throwing rocks at each other? That's my thing. I know,
Danielle Massi 15:41
we're already starting to see a little bit of that with the amber herd and Johnny Depp trial. And just a full disclaimer, I'm not watching that trial, I don't care, I have no interest in the circus. But just being a person in like today's day and age, it gets thrown at you from every angle, like I turn my computer on, I open up just a random web page. And it's like, I put a J down in the Google search and a pops right up. Or if I open my tic tock app, first thing that comes up, it's like they're throwing it at us. I think this is a big topic. And I would love to hear your thoughts on this. But in my opinion, and this is like my weird conspiracy theory, let's get down the rabbit hole thoughts. I think a lot of the way that this happens, where it's let's label people, let's get everybody focused on all the drama in the circus, it's like almost a way to keep us all blind. Like instead of focusing on that sole purpose, like "what actually makes me happy? what actually makes me feel good on a regular basis?" . . . I'm not worried about that I'm too focused on all the trauma, all the stuff that's happening, the lights and the bangs happening in every direction. And so I miss it. And I find that so often with people that I encounter, that they so really just go outside and take a big breath of fresh air and take a moment to notice how beautiful things are no matter where they are in the world. Or take a moment to meditate. Just be with yourself in that present moment with no agenda whatsoever. The focus more often tends to be on distraction. How can I keep myself entertained? How can I keep the circus moving? And the media is all too ready to give us stuff. Right?
Harry Turner 17:20
Yes. How can I remain lost in the matrix? Essentially what it is? Yeah, you already know that if you defeat the enemy within the enemy without can do you no harm. I've been telling you know, my listeners, y'all be out. I've been giving out a code the whole time. So when this finally click the things that I repeat over and over and over, just know that all I'm doing is passing it forward.
Harry Turner 17:38
Nobody has a monopoly on knowledge. But understand that when you defeat enemy with him, well, you understand that it's the internal world, even the science, if you look at the science, science shows you that and psychotherapy as well as mindfulness, that if you regulate your your autonomic nervous system, then it doesn't really matter what the external world what's going on in external world, because that's not really real. That's not really the real world. This is where we play games, this is just a construct in the mind doesn't convey reality constructs it, it conveyed, it doesn't convey it in that it doesn't depict it accurately, it constructs it based off the information that already knows. The problem is, is that there are known knowns known unknowns and unknown unknowns, I'm gonna stop right there. But system what you're saying, Come on, talk to me,
Danielle Massi 18:16
I think it's so true. And one of the things that happens very often for me, when I do shadow work with people one to one is we go to the space in between past lives and this current life. And when we go to that space, it's very much a space of no judgment, or emotions are there but they're muted. And it's really just a look at what was I doing? And how did I veer from my purpose? Or how do I embody my purpose? And how do I do it better next time And if we all remember that, that the focus is really to just be fully embodied, to be in the present, to accept the fact that we know nothing, we literally know nothing. And to be okay with that things would shift, things would move in a different direction. I think we'd have so much more internal peace. And that would be externally reflected is
Danielle Massi 19:02
one of the points that you were making before actually reminds me of a lot of Joe Dispenza. His work, Joe Dispenza, spends so much time talking about creating coherence within our body and connecting the brain and the heart and having them regulate each other having that autonomic nervous system. So smoothly run, and we can't really get to that place by pressing fast forward.
Danielle Massi 19:22
Everybody wants to just get to that finish line. They want to skip the shadow work, they want to go right to the light. And for me, I think the beautiful part of being a human and being a part of this human experience is the journey. It's the hardships. It's the moments that really are horrific and grounding in a lot of ways because they let us feel the full range of human emotion which I believe we are here to feel every piece of it. If we weren't we wouldn't have the ability to have those emotions. And so actually sitting with rage, with fear with sadness with excitement and joy, letting ourselves go to those aces so fully and not forcing ourselves through them. Even things like grief, when we lose people or lose things, it's so easy for us to just push it away to bury it to pretend like it's not real. And I think we need to shift our focus more into just sitting with it and going deeper and asking ourselves no, what is it that I need to feel right now? Why is it this is being elicited? What does this remind me of? From my childhood? There's always there can
Harry Turner 20:31
see, the synergy is yeah, I'm feeling really inspired to talk right about the grief. Again, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, understand that that energy of fear is contagious. And my faith is a cup that come to a point where Jesus says, How dare you talk about the splinter in your brother's eye or your neighbors when you have a plank in yours. And for me, grief if you understand grief, Grief can manifest in different ways. If you're in fluent, I noticed that grief manifest a certain way. Typically, if you're middle class, it manifests a certain way, even if your lower lower class close to middle class and manifests a certain way specific way. When you already have everything. It feels like everything is going against you and you have so much trauma, and you're surrounded by so much hell, grief, and a state of fight or flight. When we get lost in a matrix, the more we get lost in the matrix more we get into the illusion. The more we fall into the illusion, the more we fall into the belief that we truly are separate. And we see ourselves as such and experienced ourselves fully through the ego. And that space of lostness. One can project one's grief onto the other. And so in that space, you're the reason for my grief. And if you have the reason for my grief, the only way to deal with my grief is to deal with you, ergo murder rates. It has nothing to do with what a person looks like it has everything to do with condition. It doesn't matter whether it was and I'm going it doesn't matter whether it was black in the hood, whether it was Irish in the hood, whether it was Italian in the hood, anybody in the hood gonna behave like they from the hood, because we're all the same.
Harry Turner 22:00
So stop judging one another. You can sit there and look at the Bloods and the Crips and talk about oh my god, that murderers and isn't that. What do we think Democrats, Republicans are? I'm not going I'm not going political. They literally were the same colors. If you're seeking a life coach, nocturnal therapist is the name and mental alchemy is the game. If you want to understand how to transmute transform and transcend these challenges in these challenging emotions, find me at the School of outliers at become an outlier.com/links. Again, that's become an outlier.com/links stay lit and agape.
Danielle Massi 22:41
Yep, anytime you have to pick teams, anytime we have to pick sides. Anytime we're separating from each other. That's obviously bullshit. We shouldn't be doing that. We're all people. We're all human. We're all here having a human experience. We're basically just Stardust that's packed into a really concrete space. Startups, technically, we are all of our neurons. Yeah, all of our neurons are electrons. Everything about who we are, is broken down into stardust. That's what we are at our core. sprinkling it out. We're like Tinker Bell. We're basically just stardust that formed into space. And if we get even more scientific about it, we're not even actually matter. Like we feel ourselves physically. But really, all we're feeling is energy. All we are, each atom at its core, is space, is gas. So we're just like lumps of air floating around here. Why are we separating ourselves? And I think that answer comes back to my really conspiratorial thought process of everything is this illusion? We're made to feel certain ways to keep us stuck to keep us in the same mentality to stop us from growing. But why? What's the point? what's the end game? What does anybody get out of halting people from being able to explore who they are, and from feeling good in their body in their life.
Harry Turner 24:06
And this space lost in ISness, you get to acquire more goods, more resources that you'll never use more than you'll ever have, the more more than you'll ever use more than your grandchildren will never use more than your great grandchildren will ever use. And, and again, it exactly, exactly for what is the game? What does it get? What have you actually gained? Yeah, so you can do everything. But there's a reason why the suicide rates have been highest among a fluid white males. I'm not proposing any reasons. I'm just saying that as a reason for that. But if you compare money to happiness, and if you are an affluent white male in America, you're top of the food chain in the world period. The end, there's no discussion about not even a debate and there's no one close period. So why why What about life would be so miserable, you would think because it's not about that. It's about on answering that question, what's your truth and that truth, you'll find that in the shadows, that's why I got the Shadow Queen on here, they talk to us about some, some techniques that we can use to explore shadows, please, if you don't mind,
Danielle Massi 25:12
of course. So with the shadow, with the unconscious mind, we can all tap into it, everybody has the ability to go to that space. What we're looking to do to access the unconscious mind is go into what are called "theta brainwaves". Now, most of the time, like when you're listening to this podcast, or when you're actively moving about life, your brainwave patterns are really dense and short, you're very active, what we want to do is get you to a place where it's really calm and relaxed. Think about like how your brain feels how your mind feels, as you're getting ready to drift off to sleep, as long as you're in on somebody whose mind races at that moment. So think about as you're most relaxed when you're drifting off. If you're someone who meditates how you feel when you meditate. What's happening is that brainwave pattern, just spacing out enough that we can actually access the unconscious is kind of like a backdoor entry into it. When you're in that position, you have the unique ability to ask yourself questions, to go into those deep spaces. So you can ask yourself about the pain that you've experienced, or about the feelings that you're feeling in that current moment, you could use journal prompts, and find things on the internet to actually go deeper into this.
Danielle Massi 26:13
Or you could work with a professional, like my nocturnal therapist here or I, what you would do at that point is be guided into your own shadows and just held while you go into them. The way that I suggest people do this is to practice getting into that meditative state every day for say, a week or two doesn't have to be very long. But just let yourself go there and sit and just be in that space, just be with yourself, allow your heart rate to slow your autonomic nervous system to be fully in that rest and digest mode, to let your brain turn off. But to not block out things that come through. People feel with meditation, like they're not allowed to think like you can have thoughts, throw that idea out, let the thoughts come, those things are coming for a reason. That's the ego presenting itself to you in a protective state to make sure that you don't get into that unconscious. But that's where the yummy stuff is, that's where the goods are. So we want to get there.
Danielle Massi 27:14
So let those thoughts come. Let yourself feel them, see them and then just kind of let them pass by. And as you allow yourself to go there everyday for an extended period of time, what might start happening is you start seeing things almost a dream or like a daydream, if you will. And when you see those things they could be memories could be moments from your childhood, it could be moments from even past lives that you've had. And as you let those pour through. Just let yourself be with them, like yourself, see these moments happen is easier than we think. When you see them, let yourself feel everything but keep that body really calm. The breath should say really even focus on filling your belly with air, really letting that air fill that stomach space, like your diaphragm is just taking it all in, make sure the shoulders aren't popping all the way up to your ears is terrible for you. Allow yourself to remain in that calm space.
Danielle Massi 28:12
The autonomic nervous system is funny in this way, when we're in the sympathetic nervous system, response fight or flight, you are having really shallow breathing, your heart is beating out of your chest, your tension is sitting in your shoulders, your back and your brain mind starts to get fogging. If you can keep your breath really calm and keep yourself really relaxed.
Danielle Massi 28:34
You'll be in the parasympathetic nervous system, say where you remain calm. And that's where we can start to heal those shadow moments. That's where we can see things that are full of grief, sadness, heaviness, anger, or even things you've just forgotten that your unconscious mind is holding on to for whenever you're ready, you let them come, but you keep yourself still you keep yourself in that coherence space. And when you do that, you alter how it exists in your brain, your body and your energy. What you're doing at that point, is literally rewiring things called your neural pathways, your neural pathways or like the highway system in your brain. So you're working to just kind of click things in and out of place to remove old pathways process called synaptic pruning, and to put new ones in place, a process called synaptogenesis. And when that happens, it's like a domino effect of goodness, like your whole body starts to respond when your brain changes, your emotions change because they're just a chemical reaction in forming your body of how to feel. So your body changes and then your thoughts which actually come from your gut, not your head start to change as well. So that was really that was a big explanation for very small amount of time. I hope I did my best to condense it down.
Harry Turner 29:48
That masterfully I'm so like, overhead just smiling because I told I told them we were made a stardust and I was holding my people and think I was crazy. You came on here y'all heard her. She. . . look . . . Validation. I mean, I feel real validated. I'm not seeking validation. But
Danielle Massi 30:07
I feel like we just got it.
Harry Turner 30:10
Yes. And then everything you just said I just did a real a couple of weeks ago, the story of the story of connection, the story of protection versus the story of disconnection and we're talking about the dorsal vagal freeze response in the fight or flight sympathetic than the ventral vagus is the story of connection. And being in that space, we speak in the same language we are reading from the same book. Yes, yes, ma'am.
Danielle Massi 30:32
Somebody's feeling like they want to learn more about this. There's so much brilliant information out there. There are people like Dr. Steven Porges, who talk about the vagal nerve and its impact on the entire body system. Obviously, there's Dr. Joe Dispenza. And his work on creating coherence within the body. Start learning if you haven't done so already, like this podcast is an amazing start, keep going. There's so much information out there that's available to you. Let it just soak in, let yourself keep going for it. And even if we're speaking a different language right now, it doesn't mean that you won't be speaking to with us in a few months if you start letting yourself go there. Yes,
Harry Turner 31:09
yes, yes, yes. Yes. And thank you for bringing them in. Because I don't it's rare that I mentioned names, but yes, polyvagal theory, Dr. Steven Porges. That's really where I learned about the story of connection, protection and disconnection from Oh, yeah, yeah, I even have his chart and everything
Danielle Massi 31:27
during another training with him in I think a month. He is so good. He's so good.
Harry Turner 31:33
Yes, he is. I love his Why hadn't anything, any trainers when I did the read the books and whatnot. And, of course, I'm familiar. It's crazy. It's, so we talk and we talk and look, you're just gonna have to sit back and listen to us talk for a sec. It's crazy that a lot of the things that I later got trained in, I was already told was true. And but I felt crazy with that truth, that what the one domain when it really made me feel like it made me feel but the real one I really struggled to accept was the one about internal family systems and that truth. And I would I used to work in the ER and somebody would come in psychotic and maybe maybe schism affective disorder, or schizophrenia, in a manic state. And I would sit with not not the manic state. But schizophrenia in particular, I would sit with them much longer than a lot of other people to wonder whether the doctors would wonder why I sit with them so long. And I couldn't tell them, I'm trying to understand their language. I'm trying to understand their pots. We before I even knew anything about pots work or internal family systems, or
Danielle Massi 32:34
Netview. Hmm. It's very, but when he interviewed that was what Murray Bowen did back in the 1900s. His work with schizophrenia, and with family systems work that basically the start of marriage and family therapy was him going into the psychiatric hospital and sitting with schizophrenic girls, because that was the group that he was with. And he would interact with them, he would sit with them, he would just be with him. And he actually noticed that they were more I don't want to say normal, because I think normal is a relative term. They were more relaxed, they were more calm, they were able to speak fluently, and they wouldn't go off on weird cyclical tangents.
Danielle Massi 33:12
But when their parents came in the room, in particular, their mothers, they would go into a full blown schizophrenic state. When we are around other people, we shift our energy shifts, the way that we connect to each other shifts. And those relationships are so karmic, so internal family systems is amazing, because it really gets into the nitty gritty of that, but it also sucks to like we were talking earlier about those people who truly have narcissism, but we have to remember that that is a child that was very hurt. That is someone who spent probably the first 15 years of their life getting kicked literally physically, mentally, emotionally beat down into a point where their body just kind of protected itself had created this bubble this shell so that it couldn't get hurt anymore. And it's so sad to think about and at the same time, their shadow there that we can get to if we're willing to sit and do the work and I think it's scary for therapists or for healers. Just across the board to sit in that dark space and to be like it's okay Austin dark with you. Yes.
Harry Turner 34:18
Oh, okay. Good. I'm so happy
Danielle Massi 34:25
so I just so everybody listening knows I do so many spiritual podcasts. I don't get to talk the science or the family system stuff or the like any of the good. This is the yummy stuff. This is where the fun is.
Harry Turner 34:37
Yes. Oh my goodness, I'm so happy. I really wanted to just just sit back and just listen to you talk. So please, bring it in.
Danielle Massi 34:44
This need for us as human beings. We feel so much shame when we do things that we feel like are a misstep or a hiccup. We waste so much time doing that and I really don't feel like anything's a waste of time. But there is an element of that that it's we can really just sit and be kinder to ourselves in those moments and be like, it's okay. You felt you took a misstep, you tumbled. It was embarrassing, or it was something that you really wish you didn't do. That's okay. Just keep moving through it, let yourself feeling and then let yourself go. I don't think we as a society, as a people do enough of that we're taught to just put those moments behind us to repress to bury. And really, that's what Carl Jung unsend in the first place is where shadow comes from, is this innate need this socialized need, because it's not something that we have when we're young, to bury, to push things down to have them hide somewhere so deep within our psyche, and is actually making us sick, because we're trying to hold it down so tight, we need to find a way to let those things out.
Danielle Massi 35:44
And then to prevent it the future by having these moments and knowing that it's okay, I know with Shadow Work for me, I'm always doing Shadow Work is constant. It's not a process that never ends. Because of you think about it. Think about how many years you've had on this earth, every moment has some layer of IQ to it, or every day has something that you're like, Man, I wish I didn't do that. And that all accumulates and it builds up to the Shadow Work is constant. But when you get into that flow state where it's so normal to just sit with those moments, instead of pushing them away, you make the road forward a lot clearer, you make it easier to move through things and you just make your life across the board a lot easier. Feels good.
Harry Turner 36:26
If you want to know what it feels like, well, at least the variation in pain when you stare at it with intentionality. It's when you're a child and you're trying to run from a needle, you realize that the bulk of the pain, when you look at the science coupled with the pain that you're experiencing, is all made up. It's the anticipation of that needle,
Danielle Massi 36:44
that anticipation that builds your body's reaction to it before it even happens.
Harry Turner 36:50
Exactly. And that's, that's that's dictating your story, right? How you experience and so when we as an adult, we know that we need to get those needles now I don't like needles, I don't like needles at all, you're gonna have tattoos. But I, it doesn't feel the same. It didn't never hurt like you did when I was a child when I used to run from needles, because I know that their pain has a purpose, you see. And so really, that's what's so amazing about the human mind is that all it requires for you to do is to take on a different perspective, or integrate a different perspective or move to a different vantage point. You should move to a different vantage point regardless, just so you can see the different vantage points, but you move to a different vantage point. And then you're like, Aha, okay, now this fits. Now I know how to operate in this space. Yeah, you know,
Danielle Massi 37:34
how powerful our minds are just to piggyback off this exact idea, probably back to my own childhood, something my mom did when I was really young that I totally commend her for it, she would convince me before I would go to the doctor that I liked shots to talk about how brave I was last time, I'm a superhero. It's amazing that it doesn't even bother me, can you believe it? And I would go in and get a shot. And I'm like, Doc, can you believe it, it doesn't even bother me just like convinced myself what she said was true. And when I would have the shot, I would feel nothing, I would feel at most discomfort, but it never felt like pain. I feel it more now as an adult after having gone through cancer, because my body very actively remembers the months of hell that I went through the surgeries and the constantly getting poked and prodded and tested and biopsied and it was just non stop, I have more trauma now than I did as a kid. Because now my brain feels anticipation. My body's waiting for it because it did for so long. Our brains are very powerful. And they can change the way that we see, feel and experience the world around us, which is why shadow work is so cool. Because we can get into that space and manipulate things in a proactive and healthy and very intentional way. So that we can move forward.
Harry Turner 38:45
Yes, thank you so much. And, and, and understanding that when you don't face the shadows, I guess to put practically that What you resist persists. It's alright. It grows emotion, energy in motion, it remains emotion, but it remains emotion inside of you. And it manifests in ways that are not enriching to life. And so these collisions that we have, I want to say this earlier, these collisions that we have, we're having them for a reason, observe and choose not evaluate. And again, that's that's where I get into a whole spiel of labels. I don't even like the words, I don't believe in toxic people. Because I can't, for me, it's another form of otherwise, I do believe that people can can a parasite can take on a host and do so much damage that eventually it overcomes the host. I do believe that. But to say that the other has a parasite is only to acknowledge that I also have it it just to a different degree. And so when you look at the for example, the narcissist when you look at the triangle of codependency, you understand that in that cycle, the typical narcissist runs into the victim and persecutor shadows, they fluctuate back and forth between those two. I guess what, who's attracted to those two shadows the rescuer shadow?
Danielle Massi 39:55
Yes, very borderline personality disorder person if we get into those later Tables, where they also have had so much trauma and so much sadness, and they feel that need to come in and save the day probably like they did with mom and dad when they were young, or with a sibling who was sick, someone who needed them. And that's where they show up. They're ready to be that person. And then we have these weird trauma bonds, this sadness that exists of two very hurt children who can't find their way out or who are having difficulty navigating their way through. Yes,
Harry Turner 40:26
I even with trauma bonds, I know literature, if you type into trauma bonds, a number, you know, it's gonna be some scary stories. Yeah. But I truly believe that, again, it's varying degrees. Yeah. But when aware, when aware, we I believe all trauma bond, it is just that we don't really talk about the trauma bonds of all people that stay married for 5060 years and or die together and this and that, but we're all here to help each other discover each other's truth. Yeah. And when you are aware where you're with somebody who is aware, y'all can grow and heal together. It's just when you get lost in that illusion, you're more you're operating more from that fear space, mind and hunter and gatherer and mind that fight or flight mind. And in that space, there is no connection, there's no connection with you to the other. Isn't Okay, connection, there very little connection between you and yourself. And that becomes the issue when that's your default state. So that's what do you what is your take on? Well,
Danielle Massi 41:19
something I was thinking about when you were referencing this is, I don't know if you ever saw this before, if you ever worked with couples, but I did extensive couples work. And sometimes you have one person who's aware, and the other one who's in the illusion, and it becomes this weird dance of how do you get the person who's awake to manage the person who's in the illusion because it is hard to pull them back down. I had a without breaking HIPAA. One of the favorite cases that I've ever had was a family, three people, 14 year old child wife, who was the ex wife at the time, and husband, they came in because the son was having some schizophrenic tendencies. And it was like that scenario where we have one awake parent who sees one parent who's in the illusion, and the child who's just trying to get a handle on reality, or whatever this perceived reality is, and he was terrified. The whole
Harry Turner 42:11
fear and thinking about that, thank you for that. We, all of us, we become more divided in smaller, small self, whenever fear is present, the fear is a causes chaos in our in our system. So it makes sense this connection that you that you're drawing for us between schizophrenia and the energy of fear that you know that that client in embodying that energy of fear, and it is yeah, thinking about when I was in the ER, and how they would tell me Oh, this one you want to they dangerous? You don't want to go in there with
Danielle Massi 42:45
nobody. Nobody talks to this one? Yes, they are. Yeah.
Harry Turner 42:49
And that just made me want to go in there more
Danielle Massi 42:52
than who needs it the most. That's the person who needs someone to just sit there with him and be there with him and hold their hand and everybody's afraid. Now we're taking a very afraid person and we're adding our fear. That's a recipe for disaster.
Harry Turner 43:04
Yes, yes, yes. And I go in and I'd have just a delightful conversation with the individual I just delightful, the person that that that the mother or father or parent or guardian, that that's the first time being hospitalized because it's the first onset of it, they will describe the person at the peak, the person who's suffering at their peak. And oftentimes, that's what I'm presenting, when I walk in that room. It's, it's, it's different. That's how I knew I had to get out here. And that's why I moved from psychotherapy, not from, I'm still doing that. But I moved into this space, because I noticed a lot of people were in our in this space and mental health, trying to grab a surfboard and ride this wave. Yeah. And they have never stepped foot in front of a therapist never stepped foot in office never picked up with it. But they have the people they're learning. Now my lips pile on big names like Brene Brown or whatever, and just trying to copycat whatever they do, or whatever. But I think it's important that people like us that are actually been the target students in, in continuing to grow in that space actually have the passion to grow in that space, I think that it's important that we really do our due diligence to get out in the forefront. So that we can get everybody oscillate into the same frequency. And I've said this before, but waves water molecules when they oscillate at the same frequency, the wave the size of the wave, it grows. And so we get enough people oscillating to the frequencies of love and truth that we can form a tidal wave that radically changes the way that we do business and or the way that we even present ourselves.
Danielle Massi 44:40
While we're tapping into that collective unconscious of positivity of love of these energies that are bringing us all to a better place.
Harry Turner 44:48
Sister Oh, man, oh, man, I gotta get you back on I gotta get you on here. We got to do
Danielle Massi 44:55
whatever you want. This has been probably the most fun fun podcast I've ever done for real.
Harry Turner 45:01
flattery will get you everywhere. I'm telling you,
Danielle Massi 45:03
I'll come back.
Harry Turner 45:06
Thank you so much. Look, I want to give you the stage for a moment if you want to just give a message to the people and again, let them know where they could find you at.
Danielle Massi 45:14
Perfect. Thank you. If anybody wants to find out more about the work that I'm doing or wants to just connect, if you have questions about any of the things that we talked about tonight on the podcast, you can find me at, www.iamdaniellemassi.com and it's the same on Tik Tok and on Instagram and just iamdaniellemassi. I'm happy to connect answer any questions that you have. Give you guys some of those resources that I was talking about earlier on here and of course my book is coming out September 20. You can preorder it now I have a virtual book release that's going to be happening on that day. So if you purchase the pre ordered book, you have free access to the event and I'm really excited to bring this information forward. And to share all of it with you guys. Thank you so much for listening.
Harry Turner 45:58
Sister. Thank you so much for being on the show blessing the stage blessing the podcast. I can't wait for this this to come out so people can see the synergy. I love synergy.
Danielle Massi 46:08
Thank you so much for having me again.
Harry Turner 46:10
All right, y'all stay living in your true downloader model. Y'all stay lit agave and stay lit. I'm out.