Harry Turner
Welcome seekers of truth to another season of his debt. So, here we embark on the journey together a quest not just for answers for the right questions that lead us to the core of who we are. Season Four unfolds with many insights and revelations that challenge us to peel away the facades and meet our authentic selves. Let's be illuminated transformed and indeed become lit. The knowledge of our true selves welcome outlier. Season Four is that so well lit journey with Dr. su li on men's health and authentic power welcome everyone to today's special episode where we shine a spotlight on an often overlooked yet crucial topic men's mental health No, I gotta turn this distract and distraction to turn us off. Mercy. He started when he come up and it's just you know, you got to stop everything you don't want and just listen, you know? Okay. With us today is remarkable. Dr. su li a trailblazer in the realm of mental wellness, renowned for her transformative work in helping men reclaim their masculine power and navigate through life with purpose and authenticity. Dr. Lee's unique approach blends life coaching with deep insights into mental health offering men the tools they need to confront and overcome the challenges they face in today's fast paced world. Our commitment to fostering environments where men can openly expressed their vulnerabilities and seek healing is not just inspiring, but revolutionary. Yes, it is. With an extensive background in supporting men through the journey of self discovery and healing Dr. Lee has become a beacon of hope and guidance for many. Today she joins us to share her expertise and her experiences in her vision for a future where men's mental health is no longer a sodding crisis, but a forefront of meaningful conversations. So without further ado, now, let me remind y'all what it's about this season. Before I bring in Dr. Lee, again, this season about staying late. It's about living in truth in truth is the accurate expression of things essence, the accurate expression of things essence. How many times have you been in spaces where you thought that you were in alignment with truth? How many relationships? Did you fall in thinking that that was in alignment with your truth? How many businesses did you begin? How many jobs did you apply for and work for and put blood sweat and tears into believing that that was your truth, only to discover later on. Once enough pain was introduced into the situation that that was not your truth, or at least it no longer is your truth. You see, truth, it unfolds like the lotus flower. So our truth unfolds to us over time as we evolve and experience and make decisions and and learn to move primarily from our head down to our hearts. And that's what the Lindy effect is about. It's for moving ilevel it's about moving from Isla with a sky level. It's about moving from your head down to your heart sky levels with a heart attack. Because the mind thinks in the heart knows. And so over time, you'll go through enough things trying to get it off of what you think, not realizing that you're just merely thinking and not knowing the mind can't know. It just merely thinks and plays with concepts. Only the heart knows. And so eventually you begin to take that journey down to your heart. Let that be the guide. And in that space, you know that you need to have faith. Because we walk by faith and not by sight. We can't see what the heart is telling us oftentimes, but we have to have faith. And that faith will see us through those dark nights. So that's my whole intro, introduction and reminder about living in truth this season. So again, this episode though, let journey with Dr. su li on mintos myth myth, excuse me, mentors, mentors, men's mental health and authentic power. So without further ado, I'm bringing on Dr. Sue Lee.
Su Lee
Hi, Harry. lovely to be here. It's Thank you.
Harry Turner
It's a pleasure to have
Su Lee
my amazing introduction.
Harry Turner
It's uh, I know that I left out a whole lot. So, you know, I know you have buku awards and all these other things. So you know, but the people needed to know that I'm dealing with the real deal here that Dr. Lee Dr. Su Li is the real deal. So only bringing the real deal on the show. So talk to us today. Welcome to the stage and just again, thank you for being here. So is there anything that you want to say to the people before we begin though, I want to give you that opportunity right now because once I once I started running it ain't no talent. So I'm gonna give you an opportunity to talk to the people for a second and just let them know where to find you and and your message your passion.
Su Lee
I am men's life coach. So I originally trained as a general life coach and I found through working with my clients that There is such a gap and lack of resources for men out there. In terms of support that women have a lot support, there's a lot of women's groups, women's networking events, you know, women are more likely to reach out for help. So I thought there's a lot of, there's a few men's coaches for men, that they only get like the masculine perspective of things, but there's not a lot of female coaches for men. So I thought, I'm going to put myself out there because I love working with my skin, energy and support men and show them that there is a safe female space that's objective that can help them through life, love and work. So that's my real passion. I'm a single mom to two boys as well. I think this contributes to why I'm so passionate about men's mental health and changing the world for the better and supporting men in that space. So thank you for having me.
Harry Turner
Thanks for being here. Thank you for being head in. So let's jump right on into it. So first question for you, Dr. Lee, could you share your perspective on the current state of men's mental health and why it's crucial for men to openly address and work on their mental well being?
Su Lee
I think it's well known that the culture of men for generations is that they have a warrior mask, they get on and they do things in the world, they fight fires, they go to war, they provide and they protect, and because of this culture of stoicism, and this toxic masculinity now that we will all see are quite aware of Now thankfully, and hopefully turning the tide on, that men are meant to just man up, you know, boys don't cry. Because of this insidious culture over many generations, it's produced a really terrible effect on men and their mental health. For example, globally, every minute a man dies by suicide, let me just let that sink in every minute, one man dies by suicide around the world. And in the UK, three out of four suicides are male. And since 2013, the middle aged men have the highest suicide rate in the UK. And it's the single largest cause of death for men under the age of 50. In the UK, which is terrible, really terrible. And I think in one study, it showed that 91% of these middle aged men were trying to seek help. So they had had touch point access to mental health service, or, you know, the prison service or rehabilitation or something. So it's not that they're not trying to get help, or they reach a certain stage where they're on their knees, and then they tried to get help. So I think it's really important to D stigmatize men's mental health before they get to that really desperate stage. You know, because for UK, certainly, there's such a waiting list for NHS services to access, mental health and support, and some people don't have the resources to access their support privately. So I think it's really about shifting the culture, and D stigmatizing mental health for everybody, from childhood to adulthood. It's a real culture shift we need to address men's mental health. I
Harry Turner
agree. I agree. And that's that, again, every minute a man dies around the world. And you said, toxic masculinity. I have a thing for words, concepts, like I know concepts, words are used, so that the mind can know what to do with a thing. But I'd like to go a little deeper, so that we don't miss what's being said. For me, toxic masculinity, understand it's the phrase and is useful. But masculinity, in of itself is not the toxic thing. And I noticed not what you're saying. Masculinity is not toxic, it's more clarify for my listeners. Masculinity is not toxic. Just know the laws. And so the law is too much of anything is bad for you. So it's when you are in the abundance, the excess of that embodying that masculine energy, just like we don't talk about, you know, on the flip side, you know, the feminine energy, but if you are too much in that if you drink water too fast, you'll die and water is necessary for life. You know, the physical is a manifestation of spiritual truths. So it's when we go to fall in one area, no matter where we add, that it becomes toxic for us. And of course, whenever we cut we beat all over those closest to us and so then we become issues for others in our circle. Do you Do you agree disagree? Or you know,
Su Lee
oh, absolutely agree. I love masculinity and masculinity, in its healthiest form is amazing power. And it's, you know, it's fruitful for everybody. You know, a guy in his masculine power, who's authentic to himself, who knows who's channeling his masculinity in a really healthy way. Is a big Ken for everybody else. And that's what a true leader is, you know, a guy in his king energy will look after his kingdom, whether that's business work family, and he will lead from the heart, as well as knowing logically in his mind strategy, things like that. So absolutely, there is healthy masculinity, but toxic masculinity is where, as he said, it goes too far the other way, there is a spectrum. And there's the toxic masculinity, where it's really hyper aggressive, really misogynistic, you know, puts everyone below them. And then there's the, quote, feminized masculine side where they become too passive and like, you know, weak masculine in terms of, they're quite directionless, they have no purpose. They don't know how to lead others because they don't know how to lead themselves. Yeah. So I
Harry Turner
love that breakdown. Can Can I mean, can you expound on that just a little bit more. I love when you just broke that down. Because I wasn't even thinking about the weak, masculine energy. I was solely thinking about the the, you know, the dominant or, you know, like more narcissistic, you know, when those tendencies begin to get in with the passive, speak more about the passive masculine? Yeah,
Su Lee
yeah, I mean, the passive masculine. Some people could misconstrue, that someone who a man who is expressing his vulnerability and Being emotional is weak. But actually, that's a real strength. What I mean by passive masculinity is if they don't know themselves, they don't know what their calling is, they feel a little bit directionless, they don't know, their soul's calling, they've lost their meaning in life, or they don't have that confidence in themselves to lead someone else, that they're kind of looking for other people to, to direct them, or to give them some indication on what to do and how to feel that's being very, you know, so. So it's not in terms of like, being weak in terms of expressing yourself emotionally. So there's, there's quite a nuance there, you know, being emotionally in your masculine, she doesn't mean showing your emotions, it means like, just not having direction, having strength in yourself and your confidence and your self esteem and your values, not knowing yourself well. And looking outward, looking externally for some sort of direction. Values.
Harry Turner
Oh, you said another key word. Values, Can you expound on that, if you don't mind just a little bit on the connection with values. Hmm.
Su Lee
So I think integral to every human being, whether you're, you identify as male or female or non binary, every person has a set of core values that I think is generally with them throughout life, that can change every like, you know, it can change as you grow in life, and you have life experiences, but I think generally, you have about four to five core values that that direct your decisions throughout life, or that you feel particularly called to or that you feel particularly strong within you. So when you feel misaligned in those values, that's when something feels a little bit off. Or if you tend to kind of build up some resentment, or some discontent within your life, because whether you're consciously aware of it or not, you're not aligned with those values. So So example of core values might be freedom, integrity, trustworthiness, or, you know, being mission led, altruism, those kinds of things. So if, for example, your core value is freedom, and you're tied to a desk nine to five, and you don't see a way out, you know, you're not given the opportunity to relocate to different offices around the world, for example, in your job, then that will really not sit well with you, and you will hate that job. Eventually. You might be okay at first, but eventually you'll feel like the like something's not right. I don't know what it is, but they give me a good salary and like, I've got a nice office desk. But if your core value is freedom, and you're not getting that, then you know, they won't feel right for you.
Harry Turner
Oh, this is so good. This is so good. Oh, this is so good. So anyone who listens to me regularly, they already know verbatim what I'm about to say, which is a life of authenticity is the life of skillfully practicing living through your values. And my mission. My mission statement is to assist others in developing the audacity to live unapologetically authentic, you know, the boldness, the courage to live unapologetically authentic, because you know, when you talk about the, the more passive energy masculine energy versus the overly aggressive energy, even in the Oh, with aggressive energy, what I typically see in please give me your insights. I welcome your insights, but what I typically see is over defensiveness and and the more passive masculine energy, what I see is overly porous boundaries, lack of lack, they don't exist. And a lot of codependency that's what I that's what I typically see. Does that, is that what you typically see in those? Yes,
Su Lee
yes. Yeah. So so someone who has very aggressive, masculine energy, they obviously they kind of perhaps shielding their inner child or their emotional wounds. And so when that gets poked a little bit, then they immediately put a wall up, and they'd be there. Because their default is aggression, they will just attack they will just defend. And they're not open to listening to someone else's viewpoint or turn it in on themselves and self reflecting and think, Oh, what is this showing me that I need to heal? Why is this triggering me so much? And then in terms of the passive aspect? Yes, I see a lot of people who aren't in their healthy masculine, they will have porous boundaries, like you say, they will be apathetic Pate, maybe they don't feel like they've got that get up and go, they may have poor boundaries in terms of time as well as people.
Harry Turner
This, okay, let me there's so many this is why this is why I prepared because I keep I want to go continue to go that way. I want to continue to go that way. But all of this is in alignment. Okay, let me ask you the theme of living in truth. And you spoke a little bit about this, considering the living in truth theme for this season, how do you help men see emotional vulnerability, not as a weakness, but as a foundational strength in their journey,
Su Lee
I think it comes down to reminding them that they are human. And we are all human. And regardless of gender, humans are built in a certain way, in that we have a head and a heart, we have emotions for a reason, our bodies know what to do with our emotions. For example, when we feel upset, you know, our body wants to cry. So we have to, we have to listen to our bodies, and let let it cry, let let those physical manifestations come up, because the body knows what to do. And if you're suppressing that all the time, then that's what leads to dis ease, and, you know, negative mental health. So in terms of living in truth, and helping men see that vulnerability is actually a strength is to remind them that in order to connect with other people authentically around them with their loved ones, they've obviously got to understand themselves as humans, first and foremost, to be able to connect with other humans in an authentic and relationally healthy way.
Harry Turner
You know, you mentioned this ease. And again, I knew this was gonna go this way. You know, just thinking about myself being vulnerable for a second and putting out there. Even though this is not definitely not the platform that you would want to do this typically, but some some PHSI, high blood pressure, which I myself suffer from Communism, manage, it's managed, it's under control, but when I begin employment was sometime in my employment Doran as a therapist, and the correction environment and a multilevel security prison. That's when I called that's when I developed my body started to express itself through different diseases, high blood pressure being one of them. And so, through my own exploration, you know, I learned that high blood pressure is correlated to feeling like you're about to pop like, depression is just, it's, it's too much, you know, in your, your split in different areas, and you're putting too much energy out there. And even now, I see that and so the message is not as much now it's been managed, but old habits die hard, right, you know. And so this, this constant, coming back to not overworking and whatnot, like, I find myself coming back to that. So can you just talk to how, you know, specific diseases if that if that's something that that's within your realm, how specific diseases may manifest as emotional, you know, is coming from the emotional issues. My, my core foundational theoretical foundation is that the mind and the body communicate constantly, always in communication. And so then the body ends up expression, expressing really the sickness that's in the mind. I believe that the mind itself is the source of this, but it pushes it in the body assist and revealing our true to us by expressing it through the body, you know, so not that these diseases aren't real. I just believe that they're all connected to something emotionally, huh? Yeah,
Su Lee
yeah. Well, I'm not a doctor or neuroscientist, but I do believe that yeah, there are certain diseases out there that are exacerbated And, you know, perhaps agitated and created by mental illness or emotional unwellness. So a lot of immunological diseases and you know, result from the fact that there's just so much cortisol running through the body all the time. So the body is not meant to sustain chronic stress, which is like an undercurrent of cortisol and stress all the time, our bodies primarily, you know, evolutionarily, were built to be at ease, the majority of the time, just chillin in our caves, no, and living life eating vegetables, or whatever. And then only when they were came under stress, for example, an attack or having to hunt, and then you'd get a spike of cortisol to then like, go do your thing. And then it was meant to come back down again. And then that's like a healthy body, that's the healthy system. That's how it's meant to work. But now in the modern day and age, because we have so many stresses that keep our cortisol levels up and spiking. And all the time such as, like, you get an email notification, you get a text from someone you don't want to hear from, you know, you know, you've got to pack your kids lunchboxes, you've got to go to work, you've got a project, you've got to do that you're running late on it, this is a constant level of stress and cortisol, that that's, you know, unhealthy for your body. So that mental and emotional stress, like the pressures of life, family relationships, all contribute to this, these hormones and neuro chemicals going around our body, and then that will manifest physically, it will cause you know, swelling, and all sorts of things going on in your body that an imbalance basically an imbalance in your body. And, and what's going to happen if you have an imbalance in your body for such a long period of time, it's going to manifest physically, it's going to manifest in a lot of burnout, phantoms, like coughs and colds, you know, depression, and, you know, physical things, physical symptoms, high blood pressure and stuff as well.
Harry Turner
So those are my listeners out there, if you're interested interested in that scientific part. And the combination between that and mental health, you can check out Stephen Porges, Dr. Steven Porges, polyvagal theory. And he breaks down basically how the free system we evolved 500 million years ago that that in the autonomic nervous system, the free system, so if we're overwhelmed, which most things were overwhelming him and back, then we would go into freeze as the best possibility for us to survive. So that means your body just shut down. What that looks like now, in today's today's culture is if someone is assaulted, if someone is assaulted, they were more than likely to go into a free state, if they feel that, you know, the attacker is like two to three times their size. And that's the best likelihood of them surviving. So that's still in our system. But then later on 400 million years ago, that sympathetic mobilization state that fight or flight state evolved. And that's what Dr. Lee is talking about. She's mentioned the excess cortisol. So the fight or flight is activated when we perceive a threat. Well, when you go through again, perception is reality. So when you go through the list of what Dr. Lee just said, the emails and the you gotta get this together, and you got to do that. And you got to make it here on time, and so on, and so forth. All of these things become the bear, or what was once the bear that an actual bear, these things become the bear for us. And again, if you can, you don't have to actually see a bear, a bear doesn't have to be present for you to experience a bear chasing after you. So we stay in this fight or flight sympathetic mobilization state, because for us, all of these things are much bigger than I don't want to say, much bigger than what they really are. I mean, I'm gonna say it much bigger than what they really are. It's false evidence appearing real. So to be able to regulate ourselves internally, as opposed to being regulated from the external is one of the keys of self mastery. Because if you are waiting for things to go well for you in the external to have peace, you'll never have peace. So if you defeat the enemy within the enemy without can do no harm. So if you deal with what you see is the bear and you tell yourself, this is not a bear. This is not a life or death situation. Now if it's a life or death situation, you want to be you want to be hyper aroused, if it's a life or death situation, Yerkes Dodson. So you need the right level of arousal, for the for the appropriate situation to meet the demands of the appropriate situation. In some situations, you need to be under aroused, like when you go to sleep. So you need to be under aroused in order to go to sleep. So a lot of us suffer from sleep problems, because we still in any fight or flight state of being overly aroused, which then releases the cortisol, you know, again, if a bear is chasing you, that's gonna end one one or two ways within 15 minutes or so or less. But for us, the emails and everything else, this becomes an 18 hour day bear chasing after us, which then leads us into this very internally, this really internal state of being hyper aroused and so we begin to see everything we see threats everywhere, and it just continues to exacerbate. Anyway, I just wanted to expound on that a little bit more if that was okay. You know, was there anything that you heard today that you need to correct me on?
Su Lee
No, no, that was all. Great. Thank you for expanding for the audience. Yeah,
Harry Turner
I really like to teach, you know, it's called the School of outliers. You know, really the school represents community, but also I like to teach, you know, information, ignition, freedom can't coexist. So getting back to it. For men who struggle in silence, fearing the stigma of seeking help, how does embracing the living in truth philosophy, empower them to step forward?
Su Lee
Well, I think the living in truth, they have to face up to the fact do they want to self abandon? Or do they want to live life authentically and happily? Do they want to continue being unhappy, and knowing that they're lying to themselves? Or do they want to seek support in order to help them become confident at embracing who they are, what their values are, how they want to live, and despite any naysayers in their community, they can access support in order to champion them and support them be their cheerleader to keep going and to reach the pinnacle of who they are, like, why they've been brought here to Earth to be themselves. You know, and the only way to do that is, you know, if you're struggling to identify who you are as a person, or how, what your values are, and, you know, if you've got a lot of negative people around you, who are pushing you, toward a certain way that you know, that's not your, you know, that's not who you identify as, how are you going to get that confidence in yourself, to live your truth, to live your purpose to be true to yourself and your soul's essence, if, if you're struggling with that, then this is where you reach out for support. Because there are people like myself who are completely non judgmental, completely objective, who, who want you just to live your truth, be happy in yourself. And the only way to do that is to not self abandon. And, you know, you've got to admit it to yourself that you've got to own your truth.
Harry Turner
And for those who are unfamiliar with self abandoned, do you mind expanding on that just a little bit? Like, what does that look like? You know, huh,
Su Lee
so self abandoning is, so if you have an inner knowing your intuition to say or do one thing, but you disregard that, in order to please somebody else, that's abandoning yourself. So a simple example could be if someone invited you out to like a party, that, you know, there'll be loads of drink, and drugs, and you don't really want to do that anymore, because you want to live a healthier lifestyle. Because that's important to you now, because you've got kids, and you want to set a good example. So people from your past who might not know about your lifestyle change, they might invite you to this party, and you don't want to be surrounded by that sort of space, that sort of energy. You know, you really what you want to do is say, oh, no, thanks, because I'm not into that anymore. And I just don't want to. However, if the pressures on sometimes even if the pressure is not on, you know, you just kind of feel uncomfortable with telling them that you've had a change of heart that you don't do that anymore. And then so you agree to it anyway. And you just say, Oh, what's the harm? Like I'm gonna just go along, I'll just go for an hour or something. That's that's abandoning yourself because you're, you're rational that your brain is rationalizing, Oh, it'll be fine. I'll just go for an hour, but your inner knowing is I don't want to go. So that's abandoning your abandoning yourself and your true inner knowing.
Harry Turner
And knowing okay, this is good. This is so good. Okay. I'm just I got a pause in process which is saying you know, as a man I'm pausing in process and what you're saying I'm getting every word that you're saying, Yeah, you know, when you talk about self abandon the word boundaries come to mind. And, and I know the dominant teaching of what boundaries is. For me, though, I don't believe that boundaries were ever designed to be walls unless they absolutely needed to be, you know, unless they absolutely and that's a that's an actual like, but outside of that, for me boundaries, the way I defined it, is outside of the, the regular way that it's defined, but the way that I define it is it's the limits of what's healthy for me. So anything that's outside of what's healthy for me is outside of my boundaries, and so me acknowledging you know, I have to be aware of what's healthy for me and then enforce I gotta govern myself based off of what is or is not healthy for me. And that has been my the way that I've been setting my lip I got some I do have some strict some some boundaries that need to be a little looser, like a little bit or, you know, allow for more people to come in, which is something I've been working on over the last couple of years more specifically looking at it this year. But for the most part, it's been this constant, figuring out and understanding what is healthy and unhealthy for me. And then putting limits around that, you know, I used to drink alcohol a lot. I no longer drank alcohol, well, I drank it, maybe, you know, I might have a glass of, um, somewhere like, once every six months now, you know, and it's not like I can't, you know, I have I have alcohol wine in my, in my house. So I could drink anytime I want. But I realized that drinking in of itself, regardless of what person believes, what their health status or whatever, that an excess of drinking is extremely unhealthy for me. And so it doesn't matter what the occasion is, I'm not going to do it, because it's outside of my boundaries. And I just wanted to give that example, you know, would you would you say, from your expertise, that that is a healthy way to look at establishing boundaries, as they call it?
Su Lee
Yeah, absolutely. That's really, really like that definition, about boundaries, being healthy, what's with the limitations healthy for you, that's a really nice way of putting it. And, you know, it is, it's a good point, because it's not just about other people, it's also having those boundaries with yourself. So in your, in your example, it was about drinking alcohol, for some people who might be, I'm not going to check my emails after 7pm. You know, or the sample, like, you know, if I'm, if I'm a sports coach, and I also work full time, I'm not going to take on more than one match a week, that's a boundary for yourself, because it could be easy to overlook that boundary. And, you know, if someone offers you, oh, have another match, or there's another really great game on. And, you know, it might be easy to say, oh, okay, but having those boundaries is important for yourself, because, as you say, you know, what's healthy for you. So if you took on an extra match, that might cause you to feel too stretched, you might feel too much pressure, like, not enough time for your family. So it's a good way of putting it, I've also heard another definition of boundaries as boundaries, loving boundaries, or you're teaching other people how to love you best. You know, so, for example, if you don't like a partner, who swears just don't like swearing, you know, setting that boundary, on the lack of first or second date, if someone swears in your presence, and you said, you know, I'm really sorry, but that's like, I don't like swearing. And if we're going to continue this relationship, I would really appreciate if you don't swear in my presence, if that's not something, you're happy with them, we may as well part ways now, that's teaching people how to love you, and how to, you know, interact with you, on your own, on a level that feels safe for you.
Harry Turner
In that space, nonviolent communication. So in I think this has been always my, this is my approach, and this is probably the issue I take with anything in mental health, if I take issue with it, is the emphasis on the other one, it's always about us, you know, like, we don't see things as they are, but as we are. So you know, Gandhi said, he most unpopular now, but he said, you know, if you want to change the world, you begin with yourself, you know, and so looking at self is that is that specific example, but I hope that in the future, we learn the skills, to keep to stay in relationship with each other, you know, to stay connected, in spite of differences. And that's going to require us to speak from a place of love and compassion, you know, even when communicating, you know, our limits of what's healthy for us, you know, because for somebody else, they may have learned cursing as a coping strategy, you know, and so now in the person, you know, they make hurts all sorts of out of social anxiety. If the person doesn't catch on to that, then they'll go into judgment, you know, either bad person or themselves, probably both bad person in themselves. And on the other end, we don't think about the impact or how that person may internalize that. That's, that's what I mean, by really looking at ourselves, because it's always about, you know, we look for that frame of reference of what's happening to me, but it's us. You know, there's, there's us there. And so considering the other person as well, or the other people as well, how would we want to be able to stay within the healthy limits the limits of what's healthy for us, as well as help them and stay connected with them? You know, if it's no more than assisting them and acknowledging, hey, I have social anxiety, I don't really need to curse. I just have social anxiety. You know, you don't need to you don't need to have anxiety here because you save here, you won't be just yet, you know, things like that, you know? Anyway, So just
Su Lee
a really great point as well like having compassion for the other person, as well as yourself, being able to communicate your boundaries. And also understand that there's another side to that story. So it's about inviting the curiosity. You know, establishing your boundaries, communicating them, but also inviting the other person's feedback and perspective on that boundary. And working together. And that's what relationships are about, aren't they? Yes.
Harry Turner
I just an example, quick example, when I was at LSU, and I was having a bad, a bad time, really bad time. Really, really bad time. Probably one of the lowest parts of my life. I don't know if I was still suicidal at this point. Because I for brief periods, you know, I was struggling with suicidal ideation, like two weeks. But I went to go and talk to the psychology department, and they scheduled a session. And so I showed up for the session, and I sat there, and the person was speaking, you know, they asked me basic details, but there was like, long periods of silence as they were talking. And so I'm just sitting there, I'm already anxious, because I don't know anything about therapy. And, and honestly, from a cultural standpoint, black people don't do therapy at this point. Like, at that point, you know, it was still not a thing for black people to do therapy. So me, even me being there was extremely, it, there was a lot of tension that was involved being there. So these long periods of silence only exacerbated my anxiety. The person was a young, Caucasian female, that also exacerbated things. Because I'm used to, you know, at this point, especially on LSU campus, my typical experience was white female, see me across the street. So now I'm wondering about that dynamic as well. That's all in my head. So during the silence, I say, because this person had a particularly huge diamond on their finger. I mean, huge. I mean, like, Donald Trump, huge, you know, that huge.
Right, you know, diamond, this diamond is gonna last forever. But I asked him, I said, Oh, that's a, that's a beautiful ring. How long have you been engaged, and they quickly covered up the ring and said, Let's not talk about me. And I understand now as a therapist, why that would even be an option to say that. But for me, I shut down immediately. If you don't have, if you can't even talk about a ring that you flash, and, you know, just to break the, you know, the silence, because I'm over here chances, hell, what you're not tuning into, but if you if you can't even, you know, why would I open up to you about what's going on inside of me? I said, Thank you got up, walked away, never went back to the psychology department. It was you? That was it? That was it for me, you know, Now had I not had the internal resources that might have been it all together. You know, like you said, that stat every minute, a man dies around the world, when I went to the professional, you know, and I felt judged while I was in there, you know, I felt like I was a nobody while I was in that. So what else is there to go, you know, but internal resource elders, I'm sorry, internal strengths allowed me to get out of that my own internal beliefs, you know, and understandings and, and I just said in it, and eventually the dark, the darkness left, there was a whole lot of lies that was being tossed around, you know, internally that had to filter through, but it just, I didn't have any immunity from it. At that time. I was at my lowest point, you know. So that's me, y'all see, I'm giving y'all some some vulnerability, some male vulnerability. I'm putting it out here for this year. She, Dr. dagli, is just pulling it out. She just pulling out the male vulnerability and
Su Lee
just it's a talent I have, and I'm using it to help guys. You know, thank you for sharing, Harry, that was a really vulnerable piece of your history to share.
Harry Turner
A thank you for providing a space where it was affirming enough for me to feel safe enough to share, because that's what I mean, right? You know, like it's, it's, how can we create an affirming space, while also remaining governing the area that is healthy for us governing ourselves so that we remain within the limits of what's healthy for us, I believe as a society. This is part of our where we must evolve to, because right now, we've digressed, we've devolved in, at least in the States, we've evolved. And we are the point we can't even have a conversation because there's there's two sets of realities, two grossly different sets of realities that are going on. And so now there's a lot of internal turmoil now that a lot of that has to do with disinformation and you know, it's disinformation is driving it. But it's also a reflection of, of men's typically internal turmoil that's being projected outward. And so you get to over aggressive narcissistic, you know, we should kill them hanging them, you know, to get them that that energy is coming out. And then when you have a leader who embodies that, you know, and projects that out as well and is rewarded for doing so. Now it makes it okay to eventually let those more sadistic parts out of the human psyche this unleash them, you know, let me pause because this is I want to interview you see, I'm saying you have me. I have got me. Got me running out here. So a couple other questions I have for you. Oh, no, no, no, that's not it. Sorry. Natalie, could you share and you have already Could you share a bit about your own journey? What motivates you to focus on men's mental health and empowerment?
Su Lee
Okay, so my journey is an interesting one. And I think generally, for a lot of coaches, there tends to be a pivotal moment where they transform into a coach, or they decide that coaching is their purpose, usually because of some rock bottom that they've hit in life, such as a cancer diagnosis or something like that. So I am a scientist by trade. And that's what I did at university, I have a PhD in microbiology. And I was a full time mom for seven years, and then went back to work. But during those seven years, where I raised my two boys, my ex partner, my now ex partner, and I, we were together for 13 years, and we were engaged to be married. And then unfortunately, whilst I was planning the wedding, I discovered that he was having an affair. And so complete heartbreak, devastation in my world, and I suddenly had no home, no car, the kids, you know, were devastated, obviously. So during that really tough period, I really went back to myself and discovered who I really am. And I realized that I'd actually been on autopilot for a good few years, maybe even my entire life. Because I did that thing where, you know, good second generation immigrant daughter goes to school, gets goes to university, get a good job, get a PhD, buy the house, have the children get marriage, that kind of thing. But actually that no point did I think to myself, am I actually happy? Do I love this person? We're just kind of on this conveyor belt of like, it's fine. Like, there's no red flags, or so yeah. And in that moment, when we did separate, a lot of deep healing work went on where I discovered myself, really. And then I actually found that I wasn't really happy. And I, you know, turned my life around in terms of connecting with myself again, connecting with what actually lights me up what, who I'm actually about got a job. So I became more independent. And then yeah, so I was kind of living my life, have a new job, like raising the kids getting used to being a single parent getting used to co parenting, and then I hit another rock bottom. So I thought I was like, Yeah, I'd done my healing work. I'm all good now. And then I hit another rock bottom when I started dating, and I, unfortunately got embroiled in a narcissistic relationship. So emotionally abusive relationship for a good few months with a covert narcissist. And that really hit me hard, and took me two years to recover and do a lot of emotional deep healing work from that. And so that really like was my spiritual awakening, in a sense. And through that transformation, and really deep healing work, I discovered a lot of things, I became a lot more kind of wise, empathetic, compassionate with other people and seeing things from a different lens, to be honest. And I really realized that I have a love of wisdom here, that I want to help other people to support other people get to their real authentic selves without having to get to live without having to hit rock bottom and go through these terrible experiences to get there. And as I said earlier, since I've been a life coach, I've just had have a real affinity with helping men and working with men. And I don't feel like they have enough support out there. So that's why I do what I do.
Harry Turner
That's an amazing journey. Thank you for sharing that. Yes. Thank you for sharing that. For for those who may be in an unhealthy relationship. This is just coming to mind as you're sharing your story, your story, those who may be in an unhealthy relationship, what advice would you give to them? If they are at the point where they feel they need to leave but they have not left yet? Hmm. It
Su Lee
feels really scary because you don't know what's on the other side. But I can tell you that it's better than what you're suffering now. And you're not going to know until you until you leave. I think the best advice I can give is to make sure you have a really good support network around you to help you During that transitional period, when you do leave, make sure you know, if you need to, you've tapped into the right services to support us, such as a Women's Refuge or a men's refuge, you know, a psychotherapy to support you in that, that process. And also, just just remember that you, you're really tough, you're really tough and resilient inside, you just might not feel it at the moment. But once you leave, you can show yourself that you've got what it takes to survive, and that you can rebuild your life. And actually, it'll be even better than what you're living now. It's your mind that tries to keep you trapped, because, you know, it's, it's, for the mind, what's familiar is what's safe. So going out of that relationship feels unsafe, because you don't know what else is out there. But I can tell you that there's even better out there for you. And it will take does, you know, take at least a month for your brain to rewire. And like kind of break that habit. The emotional ups and downs is a slight crack cocaine. So you really got to stand firm, go no contact if you can, and, you know, stand your ground, just dig deep and be really stubborn and resilient and just stand your ground and protect yourself.
Harry Turner
In that space, you establish boundaries. Yeah, definitely. And his boundaries, they do look like wolves in these in these spaces. Yeah, you know, where maybe we'd like a visitor's window, you know, somewhere in between, but like, you know, no walls then. Because at that point, the person is consumed with their own self hatred, I can only give you what I have. And so this this, this narcissistic energy when a person really does check the boxes, because there's a clinical diagnosis, you know, a lot of people just run around saying this is the dark, he's a narcissist, narcissists, actually narcissists a really small percentage of the population, that would actually check off the boxes to be to say that they have clinically significant features as the key clinically significant features for the diagnosis that would warrant personality, a narcissistic personality disorder. But what you find with these individuals is a gross amounts of self hatred, and so they hate you for loving them to talk with you love somebody as disgusting as me, you know, it's strong, strong self hatred. And again, I can only give you what I have. And so this is what this is what happens. And really often, they they're stuck in this really defensive mode, because the inner child is constantly triggered, and a child is so afraid, and these individuals that that fear is a constant trigger for the individual to remain in a fight or flight state and with the more narcissistic energy is always about you, it's never about me, and so they project their pain, because they can't handle it. So they would rather project it onto somebody else. And then they become the symbol for that, and then they attack that. But really what they're doing is attacking their fears, even though you are being attacked, they are attacking their own fears. And so you're dealing with a person who was who was really struggling or was split. And so the best thing for them in you would be to give them space so that they can get the help that they need. You know, against they can compassionately because there's a lot of words out there again, a lot of for me, it's these words that we use in a mental health field. It's meant to grab because if there's all of these therapists out there putting this information how do I grab it and how do I grabbed attention. So they use a lot of emotionally charged phrases and easy catch phrases for specific crowds. Right now they're talking about narcissistic abuse it was mainly men but now there's a lot of maternal narcissistic abuse, seminars and books that are coming out there which the education needs to happen that's that's not you know, I don't take I don't take any stand against that. It's, it's, it's that the conversation on the other side because love heals. Love never fails. Love heals. And from the perspective of Carl Jung, Carl Jung said condemnation does not liberated only further oppresses. If someone came into my office, suffering from narcissistic personality disorder, and I condemned them, that especially that population who was very unlikely to ever see a therapist, they will storm out, they will curse me out first. Maybe try to fight me, and then they go storm out of there. You know, so how can a person how could a therapist heal someone suffering from this? You got to be compassionate? You got to be as non objective and compassionate it doesn't mean that it's okay for you to go and destroy people. And you know, that's not compassion. That's that's complicity. That's complicit in this No, you don't you don't become an accessory to what it is that they did. But you help them to see internally what's going on. When they began to see that everything that they were doing every single thing they did was a projection about how they felt but they wouldn't even see any other person. They couldn't see the other person because they couldn't see beyond their own noses. In every single thing he did was a projection about how they felt from from the inside. That's when that wall begins to break and will real healing can actually happen. But it's very, I guess it's very good. There's very few. I don't find many healers out there who can deal with that specific population. I'm not specifically trying to deal with it myself, or have tried to deal with it myself. But if it came to me, I know that love never fails. In all cases. Love never fails. So what would love say in a situation? You know, love isn't passive. You know, people think you'd look people gave love a bad name. They think love is docile. It's passive Love is a pushover. No, no, no, no love will nourish you in love will prune you in love does a lot of pruning in life, you know. And it's doing those low times where love comes in and begins to nourish you back to the health where you feel like you just can't continue to walk. But again, like my sister was saying, like Dr. Lee was saying, Freedom exists on the other side of your fears. You may feel safe in that situation, but sailboats will save us at the harbor, but they will never be able to remain dock, you got to set sail. You know, it's only when I let go of who I'm going to become who I might be. And you'll never know who that might be is unless you let go of the who I am. Dr. Lee, is there anything else you wanted to say on that? You know, anything I say that I have one more question for you, before you before you depart. But before we end this, but it was anything you wanted to add to what I just said? No,
Su Lee
I think that was a beautiful analogy for that. And a really good rounding off of what we were speaking about. So I'll leave it there.
Harry Turner
You didn't drop the mic on that when we could go on move on. Yeah. And by the way, where are you from? I'm from Birmingham, in the UK. Birmingham in the UK, born and raised. Yeah, that is cool. That is cool. Okay, because I know, myself and my listeners, you know, we can hit accent. I'm sure that you're early on. But no, it shows a cognitive distortion. But yeah, I wanted them to know where you are. Now. I also was curious about where you are. So I love how this can connect. You know, there's no, like we can have this connection even though you're way over there. You know? When? Yes, technology. So as we come to the unfortunate conclusion. My last question for you is any final thoughts or words of encouragement you'd like to share with our audience, the outlier audience, especially the men who are listening and seeking to reclaim their power?
Su Lee
Oh, any final thoughts? Well, I can only encourage you to connect with yourself, live authentically in your power, and connect with your soul's purpose so that you contribute to the collective raising of consciousness of the world. If everyone works on themselves individually, and role model healthy masculinity, healthy femininity within themselves, have healthy relationships with each other, then that, you know, role models that to the generations afterwards, which will uplift the collective consciousness so that we we can create a better world.
Harry Turner
Yes, yes, yes. Y'all heard me say, if you don't mind, just just give me two more minutes. Give me two minutes, Doc. Y'all heard me say, if you've listened to me, you've heard me say that. Ultimately, the goal is to with the School of outliers, anything I do is to raise the frequency, the vibration, so that we become a radical wave tsunami that can radically change this planet, based off of love. And I say that because as you know, water molecules out use water molecules when they oscillate to the same frequency, that that determines the height of the wave. There's other factors too, but one of those main determining factors is water molecules oscillating to the same frequency. And so the more of us that isolate to the same frequency, the bigger the wave. And so the goal is, is exactly that to assist others and living in their truth to be unapologetically authentic. Because as Dr. Seuss said, You Are you that's truer than true, no one in the world can be you within you, not even twins have the same fingerprints, fingerprints, you were made uniquely to be who you are, you know, this is your time. And so when we are able to embody that high frequency energy of our authentic self versus that low frequency energy of the non self when we live in a non truth, when we can move from that non truth to truth, again, Marianne Williamson, as she puts it, you know, we return to love and As we are liberated from our own fears, our very presence gives others permission to do the same. It becomes contagious. Okay, Doc, I got I know that was the last question I have for you. But I got a real I know this. My last last question. My last last question is pertaining to me. It's pertaining to me. And I'm not gonna cut it out either. So you say, Look, I'm putting on wax. I don't know how to do wax. I'm putting on a recording right now. I'm not gonna cut this out no matter what you say. Okay. All right. So you are, you can intuitively sense you know, men. Okay. How would you gauge based off our interaction today? My energy? peaceful,
Su Lee
calm grounded mission focused? King energy? Yes, yes, Harry.
Harry Turner
Thank you. Oh my goodness, I'm gonna start using that King energy. Every episode I'm bringing that King energy. Oh my goodness, I
Su Lee
love it. Keep doing what you're doing Harry King
Harry Turner
energy. I gotta write that down my king. I like that. So that's what you held men do embody that King energy? Yeah,
Su Lee
yeah, absolutely. So if anyone likes what I'm talking about and feels attracted to this open and non judgmental space and you know, you can they can see how I've you know, have that space have held that space for you and you've just like, taught us stuff, you know, and if they want to work on themselves and they want to be the absolute best selves, the best version of themselves, emotionally, mentally, physically connect with themselves, then please do follow me on Instagram at unfold and rise. And I always give a free call to anyone who wants to find out more about working together. And I'd love to help more guys out there reach their maximum potential and embody their king energy. Yes, yes.
Harry Turner
I appreciate you so much, Dr. Lee. And I definitely encourage y'all, especially as men, I definitely did. Y'all saw how different things came up that were unplanned for me. So there is this gift that Dr. Lee has to pull things out a branch I have, like 20 questions only asked like, maybe 25% of the questions that I had already prepared, because intuitively some other things were coming out as Dr. Lee was talking. So I definitely would encourage you to reach out to her if you're curious brain and curiosity. Curiosity for me is the bridge, you know, so if you if something spoke to you, or something resonated with you on a heart level that you heard Dr. Lee or me say during this episode, reach out and just get more information? I mean, you know, what does it hurt to have a conversation free consultation? You know, what does it hurt to do that way? Did you say free consultation? I don't know. But yeah, there we go free, you know, you can't be free 99 You know, so, you know, go out there and have a free conversation if that curiosity is really there and you really think and consider and maybe this person can help me out, you know, maybe they can guide me. So please, I encourage you to do that. Again. Dr. Lee, I really appreciate you being on Is there anything else you wanted to say before I let you go and I'm gonna have all your links down when I published this episode when it's all the links gonna be down at the bottom? Yeah,
Su Lee
okay. I just want to thank you very much, Harry. I really enjoyed our conversation and I look forward to the episode and to connect with more like minded souls and helping more men.
Harry Turner
Hmm Yo, that's Dr. Lee. One more time. The audience loves your doctor lead audience loves you. They do. Dr. Lee thank you again I appreciate you having on in y'all y'all know my mission statement is to assist others in developing the audacity to live unapologetically authentic this has been an episode of season four is that so what a theme is living in truth being lit and this was a lit journey with Dr. su li on men's mental health and authentic power? I appreciate y'all Outlast well listen continue to check out the show continue to support me mad love and respect. I'll see y'all later. As we continue another chapter of Is that so? I hope our journey today has left you with more than just thoughts but a call to live intentionally, live intentionally deeply, authentically and truthfully. The path of self discovery of Self knowledge is infinite elaborate, where each turn reveals more of who we are and can be led this conversation via lantern in the dark guiding you back to yourself time and again until we meet next outlier. Continue to seek question and live in the profound truth that defines your existence. Agave and stay lit. They've been through
